tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-946235325566947321.post3036360603862912570..comments2024-03-21T12:52:22.965-07:00Comments on Olicanalad's Games: First thoughts on the OOB for Marignano 1515 - The SwissJAMES ROACHhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04019888286247164276noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-946235325566947321.post-63965915110079505732015-05-05T10:51:58.028-07:002015-05-05T10:51:58.028-07:00Thanks, Thomas. That seems well argued and very pl...Thanks, Thomas. That seems well argued and very plausible.JAMES ROACHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04019888286247164276noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-946235325566947321.post-62836559671209306962015-05-05T10:27:15.727-07:002015-05-05T10:27:15.727-07:00Saw this discussion recently and thought I would t...Saw this discussion recently and thought I would throw in a belated contribution on the Swiss numbers.<br /><br />Ferdinand Lot (p 43) in discussing the Swiss at Marignano referred to a first levy ordered 14th May of 12000 as a precaution to the designs of Francis I. On 25th June they ordered a second levy. The 1st levy was composed of 4000 men plus 6-9000 volunteers. The second levy varied according to source being either 15000, 12180 or 13800. This gives a maximum possible range of 22180 to 28000 Swiss being mustered for the campaign. <br /><br />Oman (p 163) has 12000 men provided by Berne, Fribourg, Soleure and the Valais marching off after their representatives had demanding the the Treaty of Galarate be ratified yet he still gives the Confederates 14 or 15000 men in the battle. I think he picks this figure of 14-15000 men from Spont (72) who is quoting BN Moreau 774 folio 9-10. Later the same document mentions that 10000 men from Berne, Solleure and Fribourg refused to take part in the battle and insisted on honouring the Treaty of Galarate. It would seem that Oman has inflated this figure to 12000 and he statement of 14-15000 combatants is identical with Spont's quote. <br /><br />A figure of 20000 Swiss is given in a letter by Francis I to the Parlement of Paris that is quoted by Spont (p 67). This seems to refer to earlier in the campaign as later in the same document (p.68) Francois I credits the Swiss with 28-30000 men heading towards Milan. Subsequently (p 69) Spont quotes a letter by Le Tremoille which credits the Swiss with 22000 combatants. <br /><br />Overall Lot considers that the Swiss were outnumbered by the French but hedges his bets as to what the exact number of Confederates were present although he does considers that one claim of 25000 Swiss dead was more than their effective total (Lot, p 44).<br /><br />If we accept that between 28000 - 30000 Swiss were involved in the campaign but that 10000 went home after insisting on abiding by the Galarate agreement then it suggests that there were in the order of 18000 - 20000 Swiss available for the battle with the maximum potential upper/lower limits being 14/15000 and 22000 respectively.<br /><br />Refs:<br /><br />Lot, Ferdinand 1962 Recherches sur les effectifs des rmees Francaise des Guerres d'Italie aux Guerres de Religion 1494-1562<br /><br />Oman, C 1937 The Art of War in the Sixteenth Century<br /><br />Spont, F. 1899 Marignan et l'organisation militaires sous Francois 1er in Revue des Question Historique Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16411800077003227112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-946235325566947321.post-20697080070684989562014-06-16T02:47:24.338-07:002014-06-16T02:47:24.338-07:00Thank you, Auguste.
I'm pretty sure that I ha...Thank you, Auguste.<br /><br />I'm pretty sure that I have the narrative of the battle. The only new things are the OOB numbers.<br /><br />Most (but not all) of the emails have referred only to a 'book written in Italian', or OOBs based on 'Italian sources', or to websites with wargame OOBs with similar annotation (or none).<br /><br />I'm happy to accept the new figures, even though I'm unaware of the validity of the source, because they are being given by enthusiasts without an axe to grind - French Vs Swiss and an Italian author - I can't even see an axe.<br /><br />James. JAMES ROACHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04019888286247164276noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-946235325566947321.post-35449753400208375872014-06-15T14:40:04.952-07:002014-06-15T14:40:04.952-07:00I'm Italian, so if you are interested in some ...I'm Italian, so if you are interested in some traslation I couls help you... Let me know which books are you dealin with...Auguste Dejeanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01961688777028656307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-946235325566947321.post-23887262063678149322014-06-15T10:20:50.806-07:002014-06-15T10:20:50.806-07:00That sounds great, I reckon your conversion may be...That sounds great, I reckon your conversion may be better. Will certainly be more original.Olihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06796318659076787601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-946235325566947321.post-84226147981920681072014-06-15T10:11:22.619-07:002014-06-15T10:11:22.619-07:00In between posts, and the Perry figure might get u...In between posts, and the Perry figure might get used yet, I've beheaded a Landknecht command figure, snipped, hacked and filed him to within an inch of his tiny lead life, stck him on his horse and started redressing him. Oh, and I've given him a new clean shaven head.<br /><br />We shall see!JAMES ROACHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04019888286247164276noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-946235325566947321.post-11593762742460427122014-06-15T09:22:42.375-07:002014-06-15T09:22:42.375-07:00I know the Foundry figure, yes that would be perfe...I know the Foundry figure, yes that would be perfect. The Perry Miniatures mounted Cardinal is great, I have him in my collection: https://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=23_64&products_id=2721&osCsid=hsbnpeaidbc5pjoam75bbqvio7<br />Olihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06796318659076787601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-946235325566947321.post-1397864790284301842014-06-15T08:01:35.686-07:002014-06-15T08:01:35.686-07:00Funny you should mention that. I have the monk car...Funny you should mention that. I have the monk carrying the cross (unpainted) from the Foundry Conquistadors range - I think.<br /><br />Struggling to find a mounted cardinal though. I might have to file down and redress another figure. Might also have to put him on a horse (the woodcut shows a horse). Shouldn't be too difficult, in his flowing red robes, and there are a couple of pictures of him.<br /><br />JAMES ROACHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04019888286247164276noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-946235325566947321.post-13722992868200045462014-06-15T06:27:22.621-07:002014-06-15T06:27:22.621-07:00What about a mounted cardinal to represent Schiner...What about a mounted cardinal to represent Schiner on his mule? In the L&L book on Marignano it says he rode across the battlefield preceeded by a monk bearing a cross, that would be a great little piece to mark it specifically as Marignano.Olihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06796318659076787601noreply@blogger.com