Firstly, thank you to everyone for leaving useful comments on the last Marignano post and for the several more detailed emails you have sent to me. Several had one thing in common - the Swiss army might well have been bigger than the one described by Oman in his The Art of War in the Sixteenth Century. The new numbers seem to come from more modern Italian sources (Oman published his book in 1937). Unfortunately, not speaking Italian, they are books I can't read. It also seems to be the case that the pike squares were probably fairly equal in size.
I cannot vouch for the new numbers but I like them. From a game design and spectacle point of view they provide for a much more equal fight and unit breakdown. However, some of the numbers I've been shown are huge, one having over 24,000 Swiss. I have decided to split the difference between the 'accepted' new number (about 21,000) and Oman's maximum (15,000). I have decided on approximately 18,000 Swiss plus some guns and Milanese horse.
SWISS ARMY
18,200 Swiss infantry – 364 figs, 50:1
800 Milanese Cavalry – 16 figs, 50:1
10 to 20 guns – 2 light guns, 10:1
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Advance
Guard – Enfants Purdus
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Arquebus
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24
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Halberdiers
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16
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Swiss
Van
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Swiss pike
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96
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Swiss Arquebus
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12
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Swiss
Main
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Swiss pike
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96
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Swiss Arquebus
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12
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Light guns
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1
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Swiss
Rear
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Swiss pike
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96
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Swiss Arquebus
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12
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Light guns
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1
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Maximillian
Sforza
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Men-at-arms
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8
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Mounted arquebus
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8
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How to do interchangeable flags link:
http://olicanalad.blogspot.co.uk/2010/07/top-tip-flags.html
Also note the mix of manufacturers here - Foundry and Old Glory (and the odd TAG figure) pike, Front Rank (and the odd Foundry Conquistador) shot.
In the background are two light guns. Most give the number of guns at around 10. However, they seem to have gone in dispersed, so I have given the Swiss 20 guns (2 models) but I will lessen their effect by making them light.
So there we have it. My first thoughts on the Swiss. I look forward to your further thoughts on this prospective army list.
9 comments:
What about a mounted cardinal to represent Schiner on his mule? In the L&L book on Marignano it says he rode across the battlefield preceeded by a monk bearing a cross, that would be a great little piece to mark it specifically as Marignano.
Funny you should mention that. I have the monk carrying the cross (unpainted) from the Foundry Conquistadors range - I think.
Struggling to find a mounted cardinal though. I might have to file down and redress another figure. Might also have to put him on a horse (the woodcut shows a horse). Shouldn't be too difficult, in his flowing red robes, and there are a couple of pictures of him.
I know the Foundry figure, yes that would be perfect. The Perry Miniatures mounted Cardinal is great, I have him in my collection: https://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=23_64&products_id=2721&osCsid=hsbnpeaidbc5pjoam75bbqvio7
In between posts, and the Perry figure might get used yet, I've beheaded a Landknecht command figure, snipped, hacked and filed him to within an inch of his tiny lead life, stck him on his horse and started redressing him. Oh, and I've given him a new clean shaven head.
We shall see!
That sounds great, I reckon your conversion may be better. Will certainly be more original.
I'm Italian, so if you are interested in some traslation I couls help you... Let me know which books are you dealin with...
Thank you, Auguste.
I'm pretty sure that I have the narrative of the battle. The only new things are the OOB numbers.
Most (but not all) of the emails have referred only to a 'book written in Italian', or OOBs based on 'Italian sources', or to websites with wargame OOBs with similar annotation (or none).
I'm happy to accept the new figures, even though I'm unaware of the validity of the source, because they are being given by enthusiasts without an axe to grind - French Vs Swiss and an Italian author - I can't even see an axe.
James.
Saw this discussion recently and thought I would throw in a belated contribution on the Swiss numbers.
Ferdinand Lot (p 43) in discussing the Swiss at Marignano referred to a first levy ordered 14th May of 12000 as a precaution to the designs of Francis I. On 25th June they ordered a second levy. The 1st levy was composed of 4000 men plus 6-9000 volunteers. The second levy varied according to source being either 15000, 12180 or 13800. This gives a maximum possible range of 22180 to 28000 Swiss being mustered for the campaign.
Oman (p 163) has 12000 men provided by Berne, Fribourg, Soleure and the Valais marching off after their representatives had demanding the the Treaty of Galarate be ratified yet he still gives the Confederates 14 or 15000 men in the battle. I think he picks this figure of 14-15000 men from Spont (72) who is quoting BN Moreau 774 folio 9-10. Later the same document mentions that 10000 men from Berne, Solleure and Fribourg refused to take part in the battle and insisted on honouring the Treaty of Galarate. It would seem that Oman has inflated this figure to 12000 and he statement of 14-15000 combatants is identical with Spont's quote.
A figure of 20000 Swiss is given in a letter by Francis I to the Parlement of Paris that is quoted by Spont (p 67). This seems to refer to earlier in the campaign as later in the same document (p.68) Francois I credits the Swiss with 28-30000 men heading towards Milan. Subsequently (p 69) Spont quotes a letter by Le Tremoille which credits the Swiss with 22000 combatants.
Overall Lot considers that the Swiss were outnumbered by the French but hedges his bets as to what the exact number of Confederates were present although he does considers that one claim of 25000 Swiss dead was more than their effective total (Lot, p 44).
If we accept that between 28000 - 30000 Swiss were involved in the campaign but that 10000 went home after insisting on abiding by the Galarate agreement then it suggests that there were in the order of 18000 - 20000 Swiss available for the battle with the maximum potential upper/lower limits being 14/15000 and 22000 respectively.
Refs:
Lot, Ferdinand 1962 Recherches sur les effectifs des rmees Francaise des Guerres d'Italie aux Guerres de Religion 1494-1562
Oman, C 1937 The Art of War in the Sixteenth Century
Spont, F. 1899 Marignan et l'organisation militaires sous Francois 1er in Revue des Question Historique
Thanks, Thomas. That seems well argued and very plausible.
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